8 Comments on “2015 Bantam Jeep Heritage Festival”

1. Bill February 28, 2015 at 6:54 am

   One of the things that interest me is the components that were quickly assembled to produce the prototypes. The engines are well documented, the rear axles were likely pickup truck. But the transfer case and the front axle, where were they used before the war and this scout car competition? Were did the idea of a high-low transfer cone from? Why did all the entries look pretty much the same and not a mini Weasel or some other configuration?
2. deilers Post authorFebruary 28, 2015 at 11:01 am

   Bill,

   Without getting into all the nuances, four wheel drive had been used in various forms prior to World War I (here’s a quick example, though I can’t say it’s a perfect early history http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/who.html).

   The thing the differentiated the jeep was the transfercase. That was the differentiator. As I understand it, Spicer designed the transfer case in conjunction with the early meetings with the Army and Bantam. Why they designated it Spicer “18” is still a mystery to me.

   The entries looked similar because they were all beginning with similar requirements and, once Bantam delivered their example, Willys Overland and Ford were invited to look it over. Thus, when they deliver their first round of prototypes (willys Quad and Ford Pygmy) there was some similitaries. But the next round though (BRC 60, the Ford GP, and Willys MA), they were quite a bit more similar because not only were they working off each others successes and failures, the army was telling them what they liked and didn’t like so they adjusted their designs accordingly.

   – Dave
3. Hud33 February 28, 2015 at 11:26 am

   I am excited to participate in the 75th Anniversary Festival and parade. I just finished reading Rifkind’s “Jeep – Its Development and Procurement Under the Quartermaster Corps, 1940-1942.” The Jeep community owes Bantam and Butler, PA some recognition for the hard work and design that went into the BRC.
4. Eric March 3, 2015 at 1:54 pm

   I can’t wait for the festival. I went to the first two and they were great. Looking forward to seeing the early prototypes . The only other prototypes that I have seen were when my brother and I flew out to spanaway WA. to meet Don Prine and spend a day looking at his collection. It was great, Eric Jarvis
5. deilers Post authorMarch 3, 2015 at 2:23 pm

   I’d like to see all the prototypes together as well at the Fest, but our travel plans won’t allow us this year. I’d been meaning to check out Don’s jeeps. I’ve met him and spoke to him on the phone, but just never got my schedule together enough to drop by his pace. Now that his health has declined it might not be possible. He’s a nice man about whom I’ve never heard a bad word.
6. Bill Spear June 19, 2015 at 11:27 am

   Remarkably informed comments here reflecting at last some of the real story sinking in after 75 years! Of course four wheel drive was nothing new and in fact was first used in the 19th (!) century on an electric car (one motor for each wheel). Indeed,any car to be used in the field by the Army was by 1940 required to have 4WD as a feature…so, whoever said 4 wheel drive was not the defining feature is right. After decades, of considering it, my opinion is that what made the jeep unique (it was a design, not an “invention” as is so often said) is it’s SMALL SIZE and a strong POWER TO WEIGHT RATIO. Consider in this era of half ton “jeeps” that the WWII jeep wheelbase is only 2 or 3 inches bigger than a Smart car and was a quarter-ton truck! This was also the hardest part to both sell and engineer. We forget that the QMC specifications called for a 1275 pound car that would do virtually anything including carrying three or four guys, their gear and riffles and ammunition AND a machine-gun and ITS ammunition, not to mention club up 30% grades and travel at convoy speeds on its own (60mph)..all of which is probably STILL impossible. what is really amazing is that the Bantam Pilot came in at 1820 or about. The QMC and most of the non Infantry Army, like the American public at large, had no regard at all for small cars, and laughed at them as toys.

   The jeep creation can be divided into two equally important parts>: 1) promotion and sales 2) concept and engineering. Although “the Army”, Infantry in the first, and QMC in the second, had some input, bottom line is that the lions share..I call it 80%…of credit in both fields is owed to Bantam efforts. We can safely say that without the incredible skills and contacts of Bantam’s Washington rep, Charles H. “Harry” Payne in pushing the project and using Infantry as his cover and stalking horse the jeep would have happened much later if it ever happened at all, which given the QMC love of weight probably wouldn’t ‘ have.

   Through the entire development period (May 21 to Sept 23 1940) there were basically two paths being explored leading to the jeep. One succeeded and one did not. Payne was selling “vaporware”..just guessing that the Bantam factory could produce some kind of car that would satisfy the dreams of the Infantry for a small battle wagon to replace the motorcycle variations. Thus, Payne and his Infantry allies (Gen George Lynch, Chief of Infantry and his subalterns, Wm Lee and Ingomar Oseth, were cooking up a “hot rod” 4wD Bantam Speedster of 1200 pounds. This car was never possible as an engineering matter. The little 750cc Bantam engine could not come close to doing the job, but the original characteristics, and ultimately the QMC specs stuck with this ridiculous requirement. (One suspects to make sure they failed. Payne had gone over QMC heads to both the Secretary of War and the Chief of Staff to get the famous Butler meeting, and QMC hated him for it). Meanwhile in Butler, the “jeep proper” as historian Herbert Rifkind called it was taking shape and being laid out by Harold Crist who was filling in as engineer there. He was a very capable, imaginative old school engineer from Indianapolis who had worked at Stutz in their most interesting projects including in their world shaking racing program and the Pak-Age-Car. He was a racer and a race car builder and a friend of Harry Miller (who had been VP at Bantam while Crist was there).

   Crist had determined to start from scratch, retaining only the Bantam/Austin 75″wb foot print. The car he was developing and specifying ..and trying to convince the QMC to go along with…was what became the WWII jeep. At Payne’s insistence, they simply lied on the bid form and hoped for forgiveness rather than permission.

   The part played by Karl Probst has been way, way overblown over the years. His primary contribution to the conception of the jeep and winning the contract was to draw up bid plans out of the layout already developed by Crist.He was not even aware of the project until the specs had been completed for 3 weeks and the engine and other components had been picked out. Not a small thing, but no where near “inventing the jeep”. His real contributions came in setting up an engineering staff to draw up the “as built” plans which were required to be submitted by Bantam with their pilot car. Probst’s crew (of engineers) came in and drew what Crist’s crew (of mechanics) had built over night.

   After submitting the winning bid on July 25, the next recorded contact of QMC with Bantam was the delivery of the car on September 23. In other words, QMC and Infantry “contribution” is limited to whatever was in the specs, and the specs were jointly developed with the help of Bantam, except the most important part, the weight, which they ignored. You can see actual Bantam parts included in the spec drawing.
   —-
   In League City, Texas (near Houson) October 19 or so we hope to gather 30 to 35 of the remaining BRC’s which will be the biggest gathering of BRC’s since the war, and will likely not happen again in our lifetimes. If you find yourself near there, you should try to look in on the show.
   WES
7. deilers Post authorJune 21, 2015 at 9:25 pm

   Thanks for sharing the information and the note about the October 19th gathering.

   My wife and I just finished a month tour through Texas, so we likely won’t make it back there, but what a fascinating gathering that should be. Is someone in particular hosting the gathering?

   – Dave
8. Bill Spear June 22, 2015 at 2:25 pm

   Yes, Dr. Terry Williams, the current President of the Austin Bantam Society is hosting the annual trophy meet this year which will have not only the usual civilian cars (pre war Austins, Bantams. Austin 7’s Dixi, Rosengart, Datsun etc based on the A7)but will put a special emphasis on the 75th anniversary of the jeep. Dr. Williams has spent many years and huge amounts of money and effort finding and restoring BRC’s and will use the meet to establish his BRC museum. Counting every scrap of fender that someone has calling it a BRC, there are 50 which are actually running, rolling examples. Of that number, many are in permanent displays in museums, and many more are overseas where, like the Wright brothers, the BRC gets the recognition it deserves outside the US.Dr. Williams is keeping it close to the vest but may have 12 to 15 of these cars, reportedly done up in different livery..Brit, Russian, captured German etc. We are hoping to match that number from the rest of the country…I have three committed from California for instance. at any rate 30 would be amazing..35 would be spectacular. In addition to the cars, all the BRC experts..history, production details, restoration details etc. This won’t happen again. If you are anywhere near, give it a look in…
   S